July 02, 2004

Hey, I was gonna if somebody didn't beat me to it...and you only beat me to it because a thunderstorm took out the power last night (about 15 minutes after the game ended) and it just came back ;-) Good column links. I'm a fan of the underachiever theory myself. If you take a snapshot of a baseball team at an instant in time, it's a composite of many things -- basic talent level, injury picture, management skill, emotional damage, momentum, fan support, blah blah blah -- and, while no two teams are ever precisely alike, it does seem to me that now, as in past years, the Red Sox have had plenty of minuses, but also plenty of pluses. Their budget isn't tiny, their fans are supportive (much more, I'd say, than average), their injury picture isn't worse than other teams have labored under. They just seem to get mired in baggage that other teams are able to shrug off. I think that the Red Sox have everything they need to recover and have a great season (although if I were the manager, they'd all be out there right now doing the most basic fielding drills in the book, all day every day until they don't make any more mistakes). I'd just bet the farm that they won't, though. The game was a treat, for sure. I only saw it from the 10th inning on, but that was good enough. Any day that started with Serena vs. Amelie diving for the ball (and coming up with it), and ended with Derek Jeter diving for the ball (and coming up with it), is a big bonus. And next up, for Yankee fans, we get a subway series!

posted by lil_brown_bat at 06:16 AM on July 02, 2004

Jeter's catch is the definition of his 'intangibles'. That was balls out.

posted by garfield at 08:12 AM on July 02, 2004

Showboat. That pop-up had "third baseman" written all over it.

posted by DrJohnEvans at 08:54 AM on July 02, 2004

unfuckingbelievable. my head is still spinning. that was just a great game start to finish. and things didn't get nearly as violent in the stands as i feared they might be. drjohn, you're kidding about the "third baseman" thing right?

posted by goddam at 09:23 AM on July 02, 2004

If Kevin Millar has to walk the plank before that time, all the better. Maybe he needs to Pirate Up?

posted by Jugwine at 09:37 AM on July 02, 2004

For the record, I may be a Mets fan, but around here I am on record as being about the only person who would take Jeter over every other shortstop in the game. My tongue was firmly planted in cheek, Softball. Now, please quit yelling at me. I'm hungover.

posted by 86 at 09:52 AM on July 02, 2004

I'm surprised that I haven't seen any Sox fans trying to downplay the Jeter catch by mention that Pokey's was the same damn thing, except he didn't need to be at full speed to be there, which in some circles would mean he made a better play because his jump was better. And honestly, they'd probably be right. But yeah, Jeter has gone from mediocre rangewise to very good in one year, possibly because ARod's presence pushed him. And regardless, both SSs made great plays to get to that area, and yes, that was indeed the definition of intangibles. I want a team full of guys who will go balls out into the stands like that. ARod, Sheffield, they'd do the exact same thing. Everyone loved to talk about what a jerk Sheff was but he's the same kind of competitor. This is why Steinbrenner overuses the word Warrior. As a Yankee fan am I allowed to complain that it shouldn't have had to go to extras, since Lofton can't catch? Whoever it was that Gammons quoted as saying "Lofton plays center like bees are chasing him" has got to win quote of the year... funny but 100% accurate. Still, he's better out there than Bernie. This is eerily similar to the ALCS game 7, in that I was up all night watching it, and now I'm at work, hung over as hell, and all the Sox fans are sad. At least today I get to leave in 40 minutes to go to a DMB show and drink some more... I'm a bit worried that this swollen face may impact Jeter and slow down his hitting a bit... which would be no good, since he Bernie and Sheff have been carrying the team for a few weeks while the others slump.

posted by Bernreuther at 10:23 AM on July 02, 2004

I'm a Sox fan, but I'm also a baseball fan, and Jeter's play was just plain great baseball. Sure, maybe the third baseman should have handled it, but as it worked out, Jeter's play was insanely cool. I'm just glad I wasn't one of the people sitting where he landed. (It's nothing personal. I don't want anyone who's 6'3" + 190 landing on me, especially factoring in his personal velocity at time of impact.) I never give up hope for the Sox -- not even D. Lowe and Kevin Millar -- but things are looking pretty bleak right now.

posted by swerve at 10:50 AM on July 02, 2004

There's a lot that can be said about the Red Sox. We're in a bad place right now, but I'm not about to call it a season and blow up the team. The sloppy D has been infuriating. Kevin Millar should be riding the pine. Why, sweet Christ in the sky, WHY is Cesar Crespo still on this damn team? Theo has made a near promise to make a change in this team, and I think it's coming soon. The message board rumor mills think it's Nomar, and I tend to agree with them on some of the reasoning being presented. Right now though, the rumored trade swaps don't make sense, and of course, everyone is denying all accounts anyway. I just don't want to see another drawn out ARod debacle. Pull the band-aid off fast or don't pull it at all. It's no good for the team to have it looming. Last night's game, was a good one. It was a battle that had all the emotions of a post-season matchup. Someone had to go home with the loss and someone was coming away with the win. Would be nice if the Red Sox could come away from one of these matchups with a win though. Que sera. I liked the lineup defensively (save for Millar in RF, but Trot's not 100% yet). Jeter's play was great. I can't imagine if he hit the arm of one of those seats though. I'll save my "Who is a better SS?" argument for another time. ARod's "I made a triple play!" dramatic arm waving hissy fit was fantastic on the unintentional comedy scale, especially the part where it was explained to him and he nodded. I love David Ortiz. I love the fact that we got him from the Twins' castoffs and I love that last year wasn't a flash in a pan or his career year. I see the flaws with the Red Sox. We're 8.5 games behind the Yankees for the AL East. We're a game out of the AL WC. This team wasn't built for sitting home in October. They will play better and the ship will right itself, just have to sit back and watch.

posted by jerseygirl at 11:12 AM on July 02, 2004

this just shows why Sox fans [and others too] just don't GET IT..its all about the WINNING dammit! Any talented jerk can put up gaudy numbers but it takes something SPECIAL to be a WINNER.....Ill take Jeter ANYday over a guy like Nomar.. Oh PLEASE. What a LOAD of CRAP. This was one series. Didn't see you preaching about winning during the last series in boston. Oh yeah, that's right, cus the sox took 3 of 4. The yankees are simply a better team right now. In June. If I were a yankee fan I'd be pretty happy right now, but spare me the rhetoric. The secret to the Yankees is not in all the superstars It's not? That's easy to say when you always have the superstars. No, superstars doesn't equal world series ring, but you have a hell of a lot better chance than without stars. Both the redsox and yankees are built to win with money spent on superstars. To pretend otherwise is ludicrous.

posted by justgary at 11:57 AM on July 02, 2004

MLB's video of the catch. for anybody passing through. that doesn't have access to north american tv. on preview: here ya go. wmv.

posted by gspm at 12:20 PM on July 02, 2004

I get a sick feeling that Tim McCarver is watching this video clip over and over, all while sweating profusely and mumbling "knows how to win, knows how to win".

posted by grum@work at 01:28 PM on July 02, 2004

I get a sick feeling that Tim McCarver is watching this video clip over and over, all while sweating profusely and mumbling "knows how to win, knows how to win". Well the differences between Nomar and Jeter were pretty concrete last night. Nomar doesn't even have enough 'range' to get off his ass and stand on the top step of the dugout with the rest of his team....

posted by crank at 01:47 PM on July 02, 2004

Pretty good game. That Jeter, boy. I'd want him on my team.

posted by vito90 at 02:01 PM on July 02, 2004

It's hardly a knock to say he's not as good as A-rod, who when he retires will likely be one of the top 5 to ever play the game. I guess Pokey Reese is a good fielder, but he's also a career .250 hitter with no power and he's never knocked in more than 52 runs in a season. As good as David Eckstein is on defense, he's not much of an offensive threat. Tejada is good on both sides... credit where credit is due. As for hitting, Jeter had a horrible start, but that's baseball. He batted .396 with 9 hr in June.

posted by crank at 05:00 PM on July 02, 2004

So what, lbb? The statistics relate to the issue of whether Derek Jeter is the most overrated shortstop in baseball history. That doesn't have anything to do with the Yankees as a team.

posted by rcade at 07:53 PM on July 02, 2004

the Red Sox don't just have one or two players showing well in the stats, they're all over those top-n listings. All over them. That's not strictly true. If we're evaluating offense, OPS is probably the best indicator. The Yankee position players are ranked ahead of the Red Sox position players at every position except 2B, LF, CF, and DH. That's 5 for the Yankees against just 4 for the Sox. And in LF, Matsui is not as far back from Ramirez as you might think. And at several positions--SS, 3B, 1B--there isn't even a Red Sox in the top 20. How can the Red Sox possibly be better than the Yankees when they have basically a replacement level player playing RF, 1B, SS, and 3B? Basically, the Yankees have statistically a better team than the Red Sox, not the other way around. And Derek Jeter is outperforming the duo of Pokey Reese and Nomar Garciapara by a far margin...this year. For a career, there's more room for debate. Jeter has the rings, but how many people believe the Yankees wouldn't have won a few titles with Garciapara playing SS instead of Jeter? (I'm not saying the two are interchangeable, I'm just saying...I don't know what I'm saying).

posted by filthyboy at 09:05 PM on July 02, 2004

As for your Red Sox and Yankees question, I'll take it seriously when you provide any evidence that you have. Trying to dispute the validity of baseball statistics, based on a quick skim of the leader board and a single series, is goofy. Statistics aren't "valid" and they aren't "invalid" -- not by themselves. Their validity depends on the methods by which they were gathered, and what assertion you are attempting to support with them. I think we can leave out a discussion of the former, since that's all detailed elsewhere; but your assertion is just this vague thing about Derek Jeter being "overrated". So just what is Derek Jeter's "rating", and how should a shortstop's "rating" correlate with these statistics? Seems to me that it's you, in fact, who aren't taking the statistics "seriously". I strongly suspect that the bone of your contention is that you dislike hearing the guy praised in what you consider to be overblown terms. You have every right to feel that way, but call it what it is. Plenty of people on SpoFi make statements of the form, "I just can't stand the guy," and nobody objects. But when you say, "He's overrated and the statistics say so," as I said above, you're trying to use a quantitative argument (statistics) to issue a judgment about something that has never been quantified (degree of over-ratedness). If you can quantify it, please do so. Or, if you're just mad that people are "overrating" a player that you don't like on the porches and patios of America, I feel your pain, but please move on. It's part of being a sports fan.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 06:23 AM on July 03, 2004

I'm becoming increasingly less clear on how you would rate a baseball player, but I do it by looking at the fielding statistics and hitting statistics relative to the other players at his position. But all the shortstops at the top of the RBIs category are at the bottom of the fielding percentage category. And vis versa. Tejada is 1st in RBIs but 22nd in fielding percentage. Eckstein is 1st in fielding percentage and 29th in RBIs. Jeter is 9th in fielding percentage and 6th in RBIs. According to your own metrics he's a more complete player than Tejada or Eckstein. He may not be first in either category, but by being near the top in both he's a better overall player than any others on that list. In your own words, "That's a quantitative measurement of Jeter's performance."

posted by crank at 12:14 PM on July 03, 2004

I'm becoming increasingly less clear on how you would rate a baseball player, but I do it by looking at the fielding statistics and hitting statistics relative to the other players at his position. Each of those statistics represents a rating. For instance, at this time, Jeter is the ninth-rated shortstop in fielding percentage. That's a quantitative measurement of Jeter's performance. rcade, you said the guy was "overrated". Then you cited two stats that rated him. So, all I'm asking is, where's the "over"? Is he "overrated" by the statistics you cite? Or by something else? If the latter, by what?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 05:02 PM on July 03, 2004

So, all I'm asking is, where's the "over"? Is he "overrated" by the statistics you cite? Or by something else? If the latter, by what? Jay, Raleigh: Ripken was the Iron Man and Ozzie was Ozzie, but do you think anyone is better overall than Jeter at SS? Joe Morgan: (10:56 AM ET ) Ozzie Smith was a better defensive player, and Ripken had more power. But as far as winning games and being a winning player, I don't think anyone surpasses Jeter at that position. This is what I think most people refer to as "overrated". He gets built up by the broadcasters (Morgan and McCarver on national games mostly) to a pinnacle that NONE of the statistics agree with. The only thing that seems to fit is that he's a "winner" (just like Luis Sojo and Clay Bellinger!) and other "intangibles". Because Jeter plays more games in front of full national audiences, and makes ONE defensive play a year that the broadcasters swoon over, or gets one "clutch" hit in a series that the media fawn over, we are told repeatedly that he's the "best".

posted by grum@work at 06:27 PM on July 03, 2004

Another example of Jeter being overrated was Harold Reynolds' comment last season that he'd take Jeter over A-Rod because Jeter's a "character guy" and a "proven winner." Jeter's a good shortstop, a leader on the most successful team in baseball the last decade, and he comes up big in postseason. All great attributes. If I were a Yankees fan, I'd be singing his praises like goddam. I just don't think the numbers put him among the best shortstops in the league -- certainly not this year -- and people who would rank him No. 1 need to stop bogarting the joint.

posted by rcade at 07:49 AM on July 04, 2004

I just don't think the numbers put him among the best shortstops in the league -- certainly not this year -- and people who would rank him No. 1 need to stop bogarting the joint. Ok, but who do the stats say IS the best SS?

posted by crank at 10:28 AM on July 04, 2004

(on preview: grum beat me to it) Honus Wagner. But A-Rod (why is the name A-Rod "expansion team"?) is the only player currently active who has a chance of getting within screaming distance of Honus. He has so much range at SS, a great arm and batting stats second only to Bonds. Statistics aren't "valid" and they aren't "invalid" -- not by themselves. I'll try to be polite here, but if you believe that, you don't understand statistics as a study (outside of baseball or any other field they're applied to). RBI is an "invalid" metric because it doesn't measure anything. It's a function of OPS and the on-base percentage of other players on your team. There are plenty of invalid statistics; anything that claims to measure something but does not do so accurately is invalid. Errors/ fielding percentage are useless. I could play 162 games in the majors with a fielding percentage of 1.000 just by never trying to catch anything that didn't come right to me. Does that make me a good fielder? lbb, between this and the softball thread you're quickly becoming the shrillest, most unreasonable regular. You may have a lot to offer us, but blindly screaming at those who don't pray at the altar of Jeter isn't it.

posted by yerfatma at 11:44 AM on July 04, 2004

I was responding to someone else, crank. No worries here.

posted by yerfatma at 02:08 PM on July 04, 2004

It would be nice if you'd retract it, but I expect you won't. You really are pouring on the charm here, lbb. I enjoy reading your comments, but if you don't like people putting words in your mouth, stop framing your own comments so personally. This isn't Usenet. There's usually a level of collegiality here that doesn't involve reading peoples' minds, assuming that we're all knuckle-draggers, and pre-emptively deciding that we're not decent enough to apologize when we've wronged you.

posted by rcade at 11:11 AM on July 05, 2004

(at which time Yankees fans will, in the fervor of the moment, petition Bud Selig to create a new seasonal award, the "Most Intangible Player," in his honor) Now that raises an interesting issue. If he was the most intangible player, and a line drive passed through his torso, would he be charged with an error?

posted by DrJohnEvans at 08:50 AM on July 06, 2004